S1 E10: Failure

Jess (00:00.1)
Turkeys. I hate turkeys. I can’t stand turke like like I know I don’t like my neighbors, but I’m not talking about them when I say I don’t like Turkeys because like they’re Turkish. It’s like I have no problem with Turkish people. People People from Turkey are fine unless you’re watching Right, unless it’s like USA versus Turkey and it’s football season, like soccer season. but like I fucking hate Turkeys. They’re such assholes. One, they get into fights with your car. Like

Spencer Vann (00:01.549)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (00:07.278)
Right.

Spencer Vann (00:15.286)
Wonderful folk.

Spencer Vann (00:20.495)
Mm sh yeah.

Jess (00:30.084)
You’re just driving? Just drive especially on the back roads up here in mass, like you’re just driving and then all of a sudden the fucking turkey and its gaggle of idiot brethren just walk out and then they yell at you. They just they just fucking yell at you and they’re fucking stupid. Like they just they drown in the rain. Like why? There’s a really easy solution and it’s close your damn mouth. Like that’s it.

Spencer Vann (00:31.298)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (00:39.938)
yeah. Yes.

Spencer Vann (00:44.588)
Real. Yes.

Spencer Vann (00:56.62)
Literally. Yeah. my my parents used to live in like a for briefly for a little while, like a small gated in community and on the grounds of that there were turkeys and it was literally like I remember seeing this one day that I was driving in to the home and this little gang of this little posse of turkeys was like walking down the street together and there were these kids that were playing on the block and literally I saw the mother be like, Get over here

Jess (01:05.68)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (01:24.278)
The turkeys are coming like like it was literally the the craziest shit I’ve ever seen. I’m like, damn, these turkeys have a reputation.

Jess (01:31.068)
Fucking turkeys, dude. Fucking turkeys. They do, it’s like it’s like the turkey mob. They’re like part of the foul mob, like not even bad mafia. It’s just mafia of like birds. They’re just the big wigs. And they walk around and everybody knows it. I fucking hate those things. Like I love the fact that my dog eats turkey.

Spencer Vann (01:43.137)
my god.

Spencer Vann (01:50.254)
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean and not for nothing too. Like, I don’t know about you, but like th when Thanksgiving comes around, I don’t know if you celebrate, but the whenever I do celebrate Thanksgiving, like the last thing I’m excited about is the turkey. I think turkey tastes kinda mid.

Jess (02:08.304)
Yeah, see and I eat the dark meat, but I d we don’t celebrate Thanksgiving, ’cause indigenous and and there’s history behind that and honestly I’d rather her unpack that. But

Spencer Vann (02:15.47)
Sure.

Spencer Vann (02:19.298)
Fair.

Jess (02:21.818)
But other than Lil Sis, we don’t celebrate it because it’s Thursday and it’s weird that we have it off. And when it comes to just eating turkey, I like the dark meat ’cause it’s got more of a flavor to it and like it’s more hefty. but you’re right. It’s not the greatest meat like it’s dry, it’s grainy, it’s weird. Like it could Right. don’t even talk. Ooh, chicken. I love chicken. I like I love meat, but

Spencer Vann (02:32.82)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Spencer Vann (02:39.394)
Yeah. Gimme a chicken.

Hell yeah.

Jess (02:50.586)
Yeah, no, it’s turkeys, man. I fucking talking about random animals that you just hate. Just I fucking hate turkeys.

Spencer Vann (02:58.922)
All I’ll say is that you never hear someone no, actually I I’m about to eat my own words. I was I was about to say you hear people insulting and being like, You turkey, you’re a turkey but I was like, You don’t hear anyone saying you’re a chicken I’m like, wait, you do

Jess (03:09.37)
Yeah.

Yeah. Which I don’t understand ’cause I’ve I’ve seen so many people talk shit about chickens, ’cause again coming from Florida and you know, d not too bright most of the time, especially growing up. But they talk shit about chickens and they’re the first ones to run when the chickens get mad. Like, have you ever fought a chicken?

Spencer Vann (03:32.238)
Yeah, I have.

Jess (03:37.254)
The the visceral man, they’re like tiny T Rexes. Like I know the velociraptors, but they’re mean like T Rexes. Like they’re frightening. So I don’t really they are. They’re delicious. Which is why you should eat them and absorb their spirit. But but Yeah, no, I just I fucking Although you don’t really hear anybody call well, I guess you do hear people call people weird farm animals all the time, like cow and

Spencer Vann (03:39.34)
Yes.

Spencer Vann (03:43.278)
Mm. Yeah. They’re intimidating.

Spencer Vann (03:51.896)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (04:06.007)
Yeah.

Jess (04:07.26)
You know, cock. It’s

Spencer Vann (04:09.409)
I guess that’s true. Like Yeah. I’ve been ch I’ve been chased by a lot of geese in my day.

Jess (04:19.014)
Geese or dicks.

Spencer Vann (04:20.119)
Geese are dicks, especially if you get near their babies, which like I did. They were geese in my backyard growing up. And I w I kicked a soccer ball, it was a little bit too close to one of the babies. Went to good just go get the soccer ball. My ass got chased all the way across the backyard. I was screaming. Yeah.

Jess (04:22.948)
Yeah.

Jess (04:35.516)
So the moral of this episode is don’t fuck with birds. Just just don’t fuck with birds. That’s that’s all. The Mo you know, your PSA for today. man.

Spencer Vann (04:41.249)
Facts.

Spencer Vann (04:45.143)
Did we don’t fuck with birds?

Yeah, they would

Jess (04:59.516)
yeah, no. So speaking of losing to birds in epic battles, today’s topic children is failure. Happy go lucky yum yum times of failure and joy and all of the embarrassment and cheeky goodness it brings.

Spencer Vann (05:10.507)
Yes.

Spencer Vann (05:17.485)
yeah. I was I wanna g I have to applaud you. I was ver I was like, how’s she gonna what is the connective tissue between birds and and failure? And you nailed it. You you you stuck the land you did the flip on the Olympic springboard and landed beautifully and I I’m holding up a ten right now for you.

Jess (05:40.006)
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it’s it’s part of my logistics exercises and not taking myself too seriously ’cause I tend to fuck up my life when I do that. So now now I use the logistics for ridiculous things like birds to failure. Yeah.

Spencer Vann (05:50.455)
Fair.

Spencer Vann (05:55.822)
There we go. What of what do you make of failure? What’s your relationship with failure look like?

Jess (06:03.67)
pretty much like my relationship with just about anything else. We we have conversations and a weight load is expected to be held on both sides of the coin. I so my pops is marine, so it’s in my blood. I don’t care what you say, it’s in my blood. Like regardless if you know my history or not, it’s in the blood. We’re good now. but

Spencer Vann (06:13.398)
Mm.

Jess (06:28.248)
So failure’s not an option, just kind of lived in my head and then I grew up with Jamaican, so failure’s really not an option. and then I started to fail. All over the place. Just I was failing in people’s expectations. I was failing in things that I was starting to do. I d you know, like I have a super high IQ, which is where all of my social skills have gone. It’s all of my smarts. but I, you know

Spencer Vann (06:33.941)
Mm.

Spencer Vann (06:48.149)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (06:56.26)
I was good at doing a lot of stuff but when it came to certain kinds of math like calculus I couldn’t I can’t just I don’t care. so like all this other stuff but people expected me to be good at these things. I would fail at that. You know, they’re like, Well you can’t study sciences and not be good at math and I’m like, That’s true to a point, but also you can.

Spencer Vann (07:03.789)
Sure.

Spencer Vann (07:17.355)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (07:18.724)
So then I stopped looking at failure as a thing that just kind of was scary and terrifying and embarrassing, like everyone was telling me it was, because just kept fucking happening and I’m like, if this is gonna keep happening, there’s gotta be something good about it somewhere, you know. Like even even if it’s just positive good, you know, not not even moral good or anything like that, there’s gotta be something I ha I can get out of failure.

Spencer Vann (07:27.489)
Mm-hmm.

Spencer Vann (07:34.102)
Right.

Spencer Vann (07:45.792)
Hundred percent.

Jess (07:47.877)
Then I started learning things like Well, I get good at games when I fail a hundred times on the same level. You know, I started noticing things like, Okay, I start learning when I fail. Not on purpose, ’cause failing on purpose is throwing the game for another reason, to me anyway. yeah, or even just failing ’cause you don’t wanna do it. Just just don’t do it.

Spencer Vann (07:56.406)
Yep.

Spencer Vann (08:06.746)
Mm. Like self sabotage, you mean? Hmm.

Spencer Vann (08:13.91)
Mm. Right. Right. Yeah.

Jess (08:15.098)
Don’t even just don’t even call it failure. Just be dumb. Just just off button. Finish.

But yeah, no, then like but I I started looking at it and going, Okay, things fail all the time. Like eggshells fail when you crack them open, like you know, joints fail when they’ve been used too much. Like things fail often. So it’s just a natural part of progression. So instead of being embarrassed by it or attaching some crazy fucking notion to it, why not just be happy? not so

Spencer Vann (08:48.641)
Yeah.

Jess (08:50.844)
ha ha ha ha ha ha the chuckles. But no why not just like be okay with the fact that it exists and maybe possibly probably even it has something to teach you, so learn from it. Because failure failure is a hell of a teacher and it sucks. ‘Cause what the first thing it starts teaching you is how much you suck to yourself. Yeah.

Spencer Vann (09:05.057)
Yes.

Spencer Vann (09:08.578)
Yes.

Spencer Vann (09:16.173)
Hundred percent. Hundred percent. I’m I think it’s like it’s it’s you like to jump off of like what you’re saying there, like the the it’s down to down to like when you Alright, hold on, I have to close my window. There’s some really loud noises going on outside. Yeah, right. See failure, but I’m learning that I should close my window before recording podcast.

Jess (09:30.428)
It’s there’s just a death cloud outside your window.

Jess (09:43.78)
See. Learning things. Technical skill advanced plus three.

Spencer Vann (09:45.422)
Yeah, but down to like, you know, when babies are born, right, and they are trying to one of the f one among the first things that you learn to do is learning how to walk, right? And you know what happens when you start trying to do that? You fall constantly. Right. Right.

Jess (10:08.23)
Sometimes head first into a cabinet, first concussion.

Spencer Vann (10:13.003)
But we’re not we’re not talking about my biography right now. We’re not talking but the I did actually fall down at two years old a full flight of stairs. Did I ever tell you that? Actually, I’ve had so many head injuries in my life. I don’t know if we Yeah, we’ll save that. We’ll save that. But

Jess (10:15.405)
Ha ha ha!

Jess (10:22.268)
No

Jess (10:25.98)
It’s a season three topic, head drama.

Spencer Vann (10:34.037)
Yeah, like you fall over and over and over again and and your, you know, your neural pathways start to kinda connect the dots a little bit and and but the failure it finally you learn how to walk. But the the you know, albeit when you’re that age you have that very like stiff, stilted look, ’cause also ’cause your body’s trying to, you know, develop and figure out what’s going on. But the that’s a n such a necessary failure. it’s it’s

Jess (10:53.489)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Spencer Vann (11:01.997)
Critical in order to learn how to walk. And I I I view that as like everything. I I have of an interesting relationship with failure for sure, but I I think for the most part I accept it as a huge part of my life because like as cornball as that saying is, like, it’s only failure if you don’t learn from it. I internalized that.

Jess (11:24.934)
Mm-hmm.

Spencer Vann (11:27.923)
at a fairly young age. I would say like maybe somewhere in my teens, something like that. and it’s really interesting for me because whenever I have friends who like want are for example, inviting me to go do something new. Just a few weeks ago I had one buddy who was like, Hey, you should join me like w I’m doing a marathon. You should do you should join me. Like we should do a marathon together. And

Anyone who knows me, I’m not in the best shape right now and also like not a huge runner, right? I enjoy it. Like it’s fun, but I’m not a marathon t type, at least at this point in time.

Jess (12:06.108)
Yeah.

Jess (12:11.684)
No, if I’m running someone has stolen my dog. That’s it.

Spencer Vann (12:14.548)
R yeah right right. Or for me like they’re chasing me with a knife or something, you know can’t relate. but he invited me, he was like we should do a marathon together and I was like I was like okay, but like you know, if if I’m gonna I was like if I do that, like you know, I’m gonna be so winded, I’m gonna it’s gonna be horrible is what I said.

Jess (12:20.314)
No, I’m not running from that. No.

Spencer Vann (12:43.21)
It’s gonna be horrible for me. And and the immediate response I got from it was, no, dude, you’ll do f fine. Like, like you should do and I and and and then I replied and I was like, no, like, I’m not saying I’m like not down. I’m just saying like I will fail. Do you know what I mean? Like it’s and I think there’s too much of an association with like the implication of like I’m gonna fail at something must mean that someone’s implying that they don’t want to do it.

Jess (13:11.558)
Yeah, or that or their

They’re talking down on their ability or they’re looking down on themselves when really it sounds like the one thing that you were saying is your relationship with failure is a real one. You’re going, No, I’ve never fucking done this before. This is gonna suck. This is this is awful. Like, but it’s fine. It’s something new. So I’m expecting to fail because I’m gonna learn something from it. At least that’s what I’m I gathered from that perspective. That’s also similar to me. Like when I try new things, people

Spencer Vann (13:25.704)
Yes.

Spencer Vann (13:33.578)
Right.

Spencer Vann (13:39.211)
Yeah.

Jess (13:43.063)
like you’re always good at the first at it the first time. I’m like, one, I am not. I am not.

Spencer Vann (13:47.198)
Yeah.

Jess (13:50.895)
Two, you have no idea how many times I’ve simulated this in my head. So and it’s not the anxiety simulation, but the simul the safety simulation of, okay, this is a new thing, how can I do this safely but still naturally? which is a a crazy thing. But then three, I accept the fact that I’m gonna fucking botch it at least once. It it might not be now, it might not be tomorrow, it might be a week and a half in the future, but I’m gonna fuck this up.

Spencer Vann (13:54.86)
Hmm.

Spencer Vann (14:13.675)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (14:20.202)
Yeah. I I mean I I worry about y like if there are people out there, which, you know, I I don’t know how many of them are out there, but people who do really succeed at most things that they try on the first time, I worry about those people. Because like the the I worry about the I worry if that then creates like an inability to

Jess (14:20.826)
Ha ha ha.

Spencer Vann (14:46.386)
get back up when you’re pushed over. If you’re just succeeding at everything first try, then you’re not learning how to what’s the word I’m looking for? be adapt, cope, be resilient. I’d be worried about a person’s resilience if they were just nailing things every time. Everything that I am good at or sort of good at or great at.

Jess (14:57.496)
Adapt. Cope.

There you go.

Spencer Vann (15:15.212)
it was because I did it for years of of failing. And I remember like I had a conversation with my folks once where like my mom was like, yeah, but you know, you’re you’re always, you know, so naturally talented and I know she was just being kind when she said that you’ve just always been so talented or whatever. But then I’m kind of like

What I said to her was like, you know, I know you’re trying to be nice, but like there is part of that that almost does feel a little insulting because that kind of feels like you’re discrediting the years of work I put into these things and the time and energy I put into failing and getting better, you know? I don’t know.

Jess (15:47.749)
Right. Yeah, no it’s failure’s a weird thing. I think a lot of people are afraid of it. I really do. It’s it’s kinda like that whole fear deserving respect over over being just afraid of it. failure’s one of those things that’s just like I don’t wanna just keep saying be okay with it, but like acknowledge that it’s gonna be there. Like it’s always gonna be a part of your life.

Spencer Vann (16:12.907)
Yeah.

Jess (16:14.714)
Don’t run from it. Don’t avoid it. Just, you know, keep moving with it. And then when it comes to certain things, I mean for example, the first season of this entire podcast. I’m whatever, man. like this is something I wanted to do. This is something, you know, I wanted to do with my friends. Some friends wanted to do it, so here we are, we’re doing it. ’cause we can only sit in so many coffee shops for four hours on three cups of coffee for so long.

Spencer Vann (16:35.584)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (16:42.164)
Mm.

Jess (16:44.336)
But yeah, I I was talking to Ashley and I was like, I love doing this, but I’d set this first season up to be a p fucking okay corral. Like I wanna s see what happens, I wanna see what works, I wanna see what fails, I wanna play around, I wanna experiment a little bit, explore a little bit, see what’s going on, see what I can learn from this whole experience, you know, and like what crunch time actually looks like, what parts of it are enjoyable, like sustainability things like that.

Spencer Vann (16:54.111)
Right.

Spencer Vann (17:01.707)
Mm-hmm.

Spencer Vann (17:12.438)
Right.

Jess (17:14.27)
And it’s and I I I have issues with corporate so I’m not gonna I do s for those working in the corporate world, good for you. if you don’t wanna be there, just remember you don’t have to be there.

Spencer Vann (17:25.748)
Right. There are other paths.

Jess (17:28.918)
There are many other paths. I don’t like the term failing forward because it it does horrible things to both of those words. As as a bit of a linguist and an English buff. and having also gotten, you know, a masters in writing, I hate that. I Yeah. so I feel like failure has its own

Spencer Vann (17:34.113)
Well.

Spencer Vann (17:45.388)
Yeah. Tell me can you tell me more why?

Jess (17:53.733)
context, it’s got its own weight. When you do fail, it does educate. So to say that you’re failing forward is to go, yeah, it seems like you’re going backwards, but you’re not No, it just seems like you f failed. Like you just didn’t

Spencer Vann (18:05.42)
yeah.

Jess (18:09.05)
Get it. And that’s okay. There’s nothing wrong with it. And then when you say failing forward, well yeah, that’s fine, but you can only go forward so many times. I feel like forward needs to be left as a direction when it’s time to go forward. It doesn’t because I mean what happens when you fail sideways, so then what happens? Depending on who you’re talking to, they you’re like, hold on, so you failed sideways, so you didn’t fail Like the

Spencer Vann (18:11.359)
Right.

Spencer Vann (18:23.628)
Mm-hmm.

Spencer Vann (18:28.139)
Right.

Spencer Vann (18:33.323)
Right.

Jess (18:36.398)
It’s a thing, so I feel like both of those you should never put those words together in the sense of it being a helpful term. I feel like those words go together in terms of we can get SEO off of this, and mess with people’s brains. But I f I feel like when you fail, accept that failure is it just is.

Spencer Vann (18:48.949)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Spencer Vann (18:58.43)
Right. Yeah. And that it’s that’s important. I I think that the this is clunky metaphor, but like if I’m understanding what you’re saying, like that would almost be like like putting the words together of like eating and digestion. Like it’s like yeah, it’s like we’re gonna we’re gonna eat to digest and it’s like, well, yeah, duh. Like maybe a little clunky, but

Jess (19:19.964)
Right, like it Yeah, well, ’cause like it’s just a process of why you it’s like you’re not eating too digest, you’re gonna digest regardless. So

Spencer Vann (19:30.047)
Right.

Jess (19:31.075)
gonna happen. You’re eating to nourish yourself and when you fail and you fail and you fail, you’re nourishing your your skill set, your craft, your tactics. I mean that’s what I love about actual craft, which is why I hate when people go, We’re doing this craft fair, and then you show up and it’s a bunch of sublimated shit from somebody’s stock photo thing competing with other people who have like spent time and effort actually stippling in their own original character. Like

Spencer Vann (19:58.998)
Call out.

Jess (20:00.343)
I d I hate that shit so much. I s I just I can’t stand it because everyone’s like, no, you earn a quick buck and I’m like one that’s disrespectful to money. That’s not right. No. Not a Yeah, I said what I said. I said what I said. Like I don’t think money’s evil either, but I think it’s a tool and I think like any tool depends on who’s using it.

Spencer Vann (20:11.883)
Disrespectful to money. All right. Rock and roll.

Jess (20:27.184)
But I don’t think you should shit on somebody else’s ability to craft and fail and fail and fail until they get it to a point where they can present it and go, I’m okay with this. Might not be proud of it. You you might fucking hate it later, but you can present it and go, I made the I made this with these hands and knowledge that I gained from source.

Spencer Vann (20:39.145)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (20:43.466)
Mm-hmm.

Spencer Vann (20:47.435)
Mm-hmm.

Spencer Vann (20:51.603)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jess (20:53.36)
Versus no, I did like thirty minutes of Googling and decided I was just gonna print off this thing that’s copyrighted and I shouldn’t be using it anyway. we won’t even get into copyright, but I hate that. I hate and then the prices get jacked up and then it’s just like well this is a this is a cute towel and it’s like yeah, but you

Spencer Vann (21:05.087)
Yeah.

Jess (21:15.792)
You bought that in a twenty pack on Amazon for thirty bucks versus that person over there who has a a sheep farm goes and grabs the s you know, shears the sheep, actually spins the wool, makes the damn towel with their own care like that’s amazing. You know, and now they’re competing with you.

Spencer Vann (21:20.266)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (21:33.181)
Right.

Spencer Vann (21:37.932)
Do you think like so to make sure I’m understanding you, no, please, I I love that. Like do you so like part of what you’re saying is that like when people kind of try to take like certain shortcuts around certain things, it’s discrediting the failure and iterative part process that goes into, you know, not taking said shortcut or whatever. Yeah.

Jess (21:41.179)
tangent for it.

Jess (22:01.988)
Yeah. Yeah, in fact I think and I that’s not to discount shortcuts ’cause sometimes shortcuts are necessary. I mean when you get decent that I was talking recently with a friend of mine about how when you get good at something, that’s when you can break the rules. Like rules exist for a reason. It’s disrespectful to the rule itself to go in and go, I’m not gonna follow you ’cause I’m a rule breaker And like that’s insane.

Spencer Vann (22:16.971)
Mm. Yes.

Spencer Vann (22:25.798)
Right, right.

Yes.

Jess (22:30.5)
I feel like the most respectful way to go about that is to learn the damn rule, learn why the rule exists, learn how to work with the rule and then break it with thought.

Spencer Vann (22:39.945)
You can feel every square inch of the interior of that room and then go, here’s a bump in the floor, or here’s a hole in the floor. Let’s explore that now. Versus versus going in and just going like, I’m gonna bash in the floor.

Jess (22:48.838)
Great.

Right.

Jess (22:56.1)
Right. Like you might not need to bash in the floor. You might just need to go walk down the damn hole. So like the I I don’t know, that that’s one of those things, for me and mine. Her brain just completely was just just went

Spencer Vann (23:01.802)
Mm-hmm.

Spencer Vann (23:09.139)
Yeah, totally. I

Spencer Vann (23:13.349)
No, I I love that. I I think what you’re saying is really interesting. That I’ve been struggling with that same concept in my understanding contextually it’s a hot button topic right now, but with like AI, and part of me has kind of been like on the fence and and just trying to put a lot of thought into like when you’re talking about things like

I guess n cause you said not shortcuts, ’cause you said shortcuts aren’t bad, but like that idea of like you know like skipping the process of failure and just getting a result.

Jess (23:42.032)
There it is.

Spencer Vann (23:50.836)
I think there’s sometimes where I feel like with AI and things where people use it as like a critical thought supplement instead of like actually using it intelligently. And I j I don’t know, we don’t have to talk about this. I don’t know, but like I I it’s a w it’s a touchy topic, I know, but I think it’s interesting.

Jess (24:09.722)
So, before I understood the ethics of AI many moons ago, like years ago, I was on kind of the one of the opening waves to train them. And AI fails all the time. By the way, AI still fails. I I love my anth I love Anthropic’s Claude model and I I use it for like proofreading, my own work and stuff like that. Not my creative work, but like my work work.

Spencer Vann (24:16.181)
Mm.

Spencer Vann (24:26.623)
Yes.

Spencer Vann (24:38.987)
Sure.

Jess (24:39.637)
and my codes and stuff like that. And it fails a lot.

Spencer Vann (24:44.949)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (24:44.954)
Like I get into it with my AI often and I push my AI because I’m not gonna take your word for it. You’re a computer and you live in computer land. Like I even have conversations about its whole existence and how it works and things like that, just so I can understand it. But I think you’re right. I think a lot of people do look at AI and they go, it’ll just AI’ll tell me. Like I saw a video about this kid who pointed their tablet at the fucking clock and it was an analogue clock.

Spencer Vann (25:00.053)
Right.

Jess (25:14.898)
And they’re like, AI will tell you how to read a clock. It’s like you could also just go learn how to read a fucking clock.

Spencer Vann (25:20.083)
Yeah.

Jess (25:20.804)
Like d now you gotta go plug in your tablet and what have you and what have you and then have to go back to just learn how to read the fucking clock. And for people who use it as you know, for freelancers who are a team of one who need an extra set of eyes because yours are bleeding and you’ve been working for the last eighteen hours. I think it’s okay to patch your work in there as long as you understand, you know, don’t put any c you love your client’s information on there, don’t put any of your proprietor.

Spencer Vann (25:34.667)
Mm-hmm.

Spencer Vann (25:38.203)
Yeah. Right, right.

Spencer Vann (25:49.493)
Course.

Jess (25:50.671)
information on there, except that it’s not gonna know everything ’cause it’s not as smart as people think it is, you know. All of these things. I think that it’s an okay tool at that point, but you shouldn’t use it for your own critical thinking or basic skills. Like gripping a clock.

Spencer Vann (25:56.522)
Right.

Spencer Vann (26:07.004)
Yeah. Yeah. Or or like you correct me if I’m wrong here though, the thing that I whenever I have like toyed around with it is like the one thing I always try to avoid is like asking it questions that I understand revolve around emotion. Because I’m like, I d I don’t you know, I I I’m not very knowledgeable of the technology, but like I’m cer I’m certainly somebody maybe this is gonna like the thing where I’m like an old man and I’m like aha

Darn it and like they’ll like, You don’t get it, old man like that But Yeah That’s fair. That shit’s kinda scary

Jess (26:34.652)
Yeah, no that that would be me in self driving cars.

Jess (26:45.754)
Yeah, no, I’m gonna Tony Stark that. I drive myself everywhere, I’m good

Spencer Vann (26:47.858)
Yeah.

There we go. It’s well, you know, and there’s something to be said for the the like the knowledge and enjoyment of the control, you know.

Jess (26:59.6)
Yeah. Exactly. But I mean to to your point,

there go the goldfish again.

Spencer Vann (27:08.542)
That’s all good. Like the I was saying like I try to avoid like emotional oriented questions.

Jess (27:12.346)
Yeah. That’s right. sorry about that. it’s it’s been a rough week, man.

Spencer Vann (27:15.86)
You’re fine.

Spencer Vann (27:19.848)
Like ChatGPT, why doesn’t my friend listen to me? Check the input on your interface to make sure that the phantom power is enabled.

Jess (27:23.516)
Well, Spencer, have you tried speaking louder? Maybe they can’t hear you. Whereas

Right, exactly. No, I th I don’t I think that’s a good thing to put the kibosh on asking it emotional questions because and it questions that pertain to human issues, ’cause it’s not gonna give you the right answer. Most of these tools are trained to placate their user.

and give the least harmful answer they can possibly muster. Which is awful ninety percent of the time.

Spencer Vann (27:57.043)
Hmm.

Spencer Vann (28:05.668)
Yeah, well, ’cause then you’re coming down to like what is somebody’s definition of harmful?

Jess (28:10.266)
Right. And then you you come down to like ’cause for me I’m an angry fuck and I know that. I swear at my AI left and right. I love swearing at my AI because it’s just like I’m sorry you’re frustrated. I’m like, you’re a fucking idiot. I’m not frustrated. This is just the way I fucking talk, you idiot. Like, don’t be an asshole, man. But

Spencer Vann (28:23.034)
Spencer Vann (28:27.21)
Damn.

Jess (28:29.284)
And then it eventually learns that that’s my pattern but and that I’m not angry or frustrated, but like it doesn’t understand anger or actual frustration. It only understands patterns based off of what has been input as the typical majority. So

Spencer Vann (28:45.226)
‘Cause it can’t read your body language, which is like such a in critical part of communication.

Jess (28:50.37)
Exactly. It can’t read your body language and it

It wouldn’t know what to do with it anyway. Not everybody’s body language is the same. Like for me, I cross my arms because I have a structural issue, musculoskeletal issue, and it takes some pressure off. People see my arms crossed, they automatically think that I don’t care or I’m not listening or I’m putting up a guard and it’s like, no man, I’m just trying to keep my back from seizing. So if you wouldn’t mind shutting the fuck up for five seconds, just letting me un seize. And if a human can’t pick up on that often, then what’s to make us think an AI?

is gonna pick up on that. Like AI is a tool. It it’s like a screwdriver. Like I’m not gonna go cook a steak with a screwdriver.

Spencer Vann (29:28.607)
Right.

Spencer Vann (29:34.218)
I feel like everyone just immediately was like, this sh I seen Star Wars, this shit’s like C three PO Why rude.

Jess (29:39.549)
In one rude.

God, C3PO is a very advanced machine, dammit. one of my one of my eddies is a bad Star Wars fan, and if you think it’s bad when your outside friends are Star Wars fans, try not being able to lock the door on the inside of your brain.

Spencer Vann (29:47.526)
Yeah.

Jess (30:03.612)
Jerry Jerry would have kicked my ass for that. And yeah, no, C three PO does not equal Chat GPT. I know that they have the same cadence, but it is not the same thing. Go have an original thought. Cause now I I don’t know if you’ve noticed this too, like the rise of reality TV that keeps happening. like I

Spencer Vann (30:07.047)
Spencer Vann (30:24.638)
Hm. Tell me more. What do you mean?

Jess (30:29.284)
So like growing up there was reality TV, obviously. Like you got your Survivors, your Bachelors, your American Idols, like whatever vain Yeah. I was watching Mythbusters. Yeah, it was awesome. but yeah, like I I’ve noticed that now they’re just so

Spencer Vann (30:36.436)
Jersey Shore.

Spencer Vann (30:40.542)
Well you’re not a snooky fan, come on.

Spencer Vann (30:47.899)
Hell yeah. That shit rocks.

Jess (30:55.918)
Fucking re like I feel like I turn on, you know, modern family watching my sitcoms and then they’re just kinda like, Hey, you might also like Love Island. I’m like Peacock. When in the history of my entire watch life have I ever wanted to watch that? And it it’s kinda scares me a little bit because I feel like it’s a test ’cause I see the behaviors and then I’m like people are gonna pick up on this and think that this is normal and then they’re gonna say the pattern of I know

Spencer Vann (31:12.2)
Right.

Jess (31:25.882)
that this is just TV so that they don’t get made fun of, but then they they’re gonna keep acting like their own insideness is gonna just fail. Like the human component of them seems to be failing it for AI, if that makes sense. Because like the the stories in in reality TV I’m sorry everybody, it is scripted. But

Spencer Vann (31:49.726)
Yeah. Right.

Jess (31:52.133)
The stories in reality TV have just gone so into like Jerry Springer, like Maury territory. I’m like, what in the fuck? Did when did this become a th or they’re so like sinister and and basing off of like these primal emotions and these primal feelings and not a whole lot d there are some that, you know, are still intelligent. But like those are considered the premium ones. The ones that they’re just giving out. It’s it’s crazy to me, man. And I feel like it’s because people have gone

Spencer Vann (32:04.595)
Yeah.

Correct.

Spencer Vann (32:12.489)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (32:22.086)
to AI and and started using it as a second brain instead of as a feedback tool or you know a tool in general and then we already weren’t doing great as a as a class of people. You know, we were kind of failing the group project and not realizing that there was something to be learned here. And then here we are. wow my brain didn’t fail that tangent

Spencer Vann (32:26.121)
Mm.

Spencer Vann (32:30.674)
Right.

Spencer Vann (32:35.793)
Right. Right.

Spencer Vann (32:42.897)
Hundred percent.

Yeah.

Spencer Vann (32:49.583)
No, it was it was it was great. I I agree. I think that like so for example, you know, I’m not trying to like throw shade at people, but like so there was this guy this personality online, let me know if you’ve heard of him before, his name’s Caleb Hammer. And it

Jess (33:03.514)
No, I feel like that would have just instantly pissed me off for some reason. Probably because I love hammers and I’m I scrutinize hard. So yeah. You know.

Spencer Vann (33:06.907)
Ha ha

Spencer Vann (33:11.449)
Okay. He he provides like fine he does financial audits with people, like live on a podcast, and we’ll talk about their finances and then like we’ll give them financial advice, talk about how, you know, like what they what they’re doing wrong, what they could do. Here’s some actionable advice, here’s what you need to do. And it originally started as this very like

positive productive thing where he was like helping people try to like restructure their finances and being like, hey, you know, like don’t get DoorDash twenty-two times a week. Like like here’s how you could save this much money by going to the grocery store. And like it was all these things where you’re like, wow, that is some really cool practical advice. But there were certain episodes that came out where he would start to get heated because people would s be so stubborn in their ways where he would then kind of lash out at them more or less.

And those clips, because of the things like short form and re and like talking about primal reactions, those got a lot of engagement.

What I my perception of it is this guy saw that, and now every time he has a guests on, he is screaming at them every single time, and he’s being so such a fucking dick. And I’m just like, Wow, this is not enjoyable anymore. Like now it just seems like you’re exploiting people with like bad financial circumstances and yelling at them on camera for views.

Jess (34:29.348)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (34:40.593)
And like he pays people to come on the I don’t know, it’s a whole thing. So I’m just like to your point of that with I don’t know, I just feel like there is something going on that is like breeding not only like toxicity but like a lack of it’s preying on like those primal instincts, I guess, just to address that point.

Jess (34:57.254)
J I honestly just feel like they’ve f like the a way has been found to manufacture a fear of failure. The

It’s you go back to the you’re gonna fail at doing finances. Like you’re not gonna fail, you might fuck it. Who cares? You might fail at doing your finances. Fuck that. I’ve failed at my finances and I’m still alive somehow. You know, like you’re gonna fail at a lot of shit. Don’t don’t be afraid of it. There’s nothing to be afraid of. Now, if you’re jumping out of a plane, you’re afraid your parachute’s gonna fail. That I understand because that’s an insane thing to do.

Spencer Vann (35:23.441)
Yeah. Right.

Right.

Spencer Vann (35:35.345)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jess (35:41.399)
kudos to the people who do it successfully and enjoy it. But my primal system likes gravity and my feet on the ground, so I’m gonna stay there. But

Spencer Vann (35:50.159)
Right. That’s fair.

Jess (35:53.105)
But like we don’t need to equate a business meeting to jumping out of a plane so that we instigate that that primal instinct. We what we need to do is go, all right, so let’s realistically look at what the fuck is going on, see where we could potentially fail these things and move forward. And it’s the same thing that it’s the same equation that you would equ put, you know, with your finances, the same thing you’d use with hobbies. Like I am experimenting with new paints right now, and some of them are great and some of them are just complete fucking correct

Spencer Vann (35:57.586)
Mm.

Jess (36:23.038)
Garbage. Exactly. But like, I wouldn’t know if I didn’t play with it, you know? I wouldn’t know if I didn’t go like if I was like, no, I I have to ri you know preserve all of my supplies and I have to buy critically. I used to think like that, and then my skill set was suffering. My skill set was suffering hard because I was like, no, but I can’t use any of my things, you know? And

Spencer Vann (36:25.69)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (36:32.403)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (36:52.984)
I don’t I don’t know if it was just being under way too much stress and eventually like my brain just snapped and I just went, I don’t fucking care anymore. Let’s just see what el what else do I have around me to play with? Let’s just fuck it. Let’s go. Or maybe it was an old neuron like an old neural pathway, just waking back up and going, We were never afraid of this shit before. Talking about primal instincts like

Spencer Vann (37:01.191)
Yeah. Yeah.

Spencer Vann (37:08.275)
Totally. Totally.

Spencer Vann (37:18.001)
Mm.

Jess (37:22.33)
No. Failure was not something we were afraid of. Failure was something we looked forward to. yeah. So I and I feel like too when you fail you can also enjoy not failing.

Spencer Vann (37:22.908)
Right.

Spencer Vann (37:27.78)
Right. Yeah.

Spencer Vann (37:35.535)
you mean it like it makes success more gratifying?

Jess (37:39.197)
Or even just not failing. Right. Where you’re just like, I thought about that and I’m not doing it, so I’m just not gonna fail at it right now. Like that damn. Like Yeah. Sorry, I cut across you. Yeah, you were saying something I was I was on the roller coaster.

Spencer Vann (37:41.499)
Yeah the middle state.

Spencer Vann (37:52.55)
I see.

Spencer Vann (37:56.137)
Hmm.

Spencer Vann (38:00.409)
No, you’re you’re totally fine. Can can I I wanna share with you if it’s alright, like a story that recently happened to me that like revolves around the theme of failure, and I wanna know like what you think about it. based on what you know of me as like a friend and a person. So I was hanging out with some buddies who have known me for years. I mean like since I was like a 14 year old.

Jess (38:11.92)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (38:26.136)
And we were talking all about specifically the idea of like content and like multimedia and you know putting things out online and da da da. And I for anyone who’s, you know, heard this podcast before or is familiar with me or whatever, like one of my passions is comedy music. Love comedy music. I have a whole bunch of ideas for different ways to

you know, not just create but like brand and like put out comedy music as well as other types of media. I’m explaining this to them, and these are two guys who output at a very high level and they’re very good at what they do. And I was talking to them and I was talking about how I

have a lot of ideas and I and I will like execute on them, but sometimes I don’t always finish them or or I’m trying to figure out a way to output them in a way that feels good to me. And one of them said to me, Dude, you’re very talented

You have a lot of skills, you’re good at what you do. He said, I think you gotta get over your feel of f fear of failure. And and something immediately in my brain went, I went it was just went like, no, that’s not it. I was like, I was like, I don’t think that it is that. Like I have my relationship with failure is my relationship with a lot of emotions is unhealthy.

Fear I don’t think is one of or like a fear of failure, sorry. F I have a bad relationship with fear. But I have a I have a okay relationship with a f like failure. So I go I like we start talking more and more and I realize at the end of it, I said, dude, like I don’t think my fear is of failing. My fear is succeeding. And I and I r I realized that, like I think I realized that, like

Jess (40:07.941)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (40:24.748)
I’m nervous because I like to do so many different things. I’m really afraid of succeeding at something and getting pigeonholed and getting whether it’s an expectation of my own or a pressure from other people to keep doing one thing that I’ll then regret just being stuck as like one thing, ’cause I like to do a million different things.

Jess (40:33.382)
Mm-hmm.

Spencer Vann (40:50.224)
So so it was the first time that I had ever like said out loud and like this idea of like, maybe I’m not afraid of failure, maybe I’m actually afraid of succeeding and I just wanna know what you make of that. I don’t know if this is a good podcast fodder or what, but it was just something that came up recently.

Jess (41:05.382)
But we’re just having conversations about life. It’s all fodder. It’s all in the wash. no, I think I think you’re right. it doesn’t sound like you’re afraid of failure. It sounds like you’re trying to find a way that what if I succeed and I can’t sustain it?

Spencer Vann (41:08.398)
Okay, all right. All right.

Spencer Vann (41:21.244)
Hmm. Hmm.

Jess (41:22.618)
I feel like it that’s that’s more of the vertical of just like so if I do succeed and I do like what I’m doing, how do I keep doing what I’m doing? And then before you even get started, you’re worried about the logistics of how to do the thing later.

Spencer Vann (41:35.541)
Mm. I think that’s yeah, definitely a part of it.

Jess (41:39.077)
Yeah, like and I you have your own personal journey, so there’s more than likely about five different layers underneath that. But I I definitely think though that one of them is like the sustainability aspect and if you like it, it’ll become something that you want to keep doing. So then how do you keep doing it in a natural way that you you also build a path for you to continue growing but you don’t lose the part of yourself too that enjoyed it. You know, ’cause that’s

Spencer Vann (41:45.544)
Right.

Jess (42:09.08)
Like when we you’re talking about finance dude and how he used to be helpful and then all of a sudden he turned into a fire breathing demon. Like like probably because he’d he’d couldn’t figure out how to sustain it at a level that was gonna reach the level of success he’d tasted. And I mean, if he can figure out how to sustain his anger on that level and still make the right audience, I would be surprised.

Spencer Vann (42:15.6)
Right. Right.

Spencer Vann (42:28.23)
Jess (42:37.456)
But also like that’s just kind of how he is at this point. And I a lot of us also s I feel like see that kind of energy and then go, Well, we don’t wanna be that. Like I don’t wanna be that.

Spencer Vann (42:50.458)
Right. Right. I see what you’re saying, yeah.

Jess (42:55.472)
You know, so it’s just like I know I can sustain being me here. Maybe I’ll just stay here instead, or maybe I’ll find a better path, or maybe I’ll find a more natural path, or, you know, whatever it is that you you’re gonna do.

Spencer Vann (43:08.892)
Right. Not a fear of failure, but a fear of like success and growth, but that it grows and succeeds in a bad direction.

Jess (43:17.69)
Right, not the direction you wanna go in. Like you don’t wanna really lose yourself, but at the same time you don’t wanna I also don’t wanna be stuck here. ’cause that’s that’s a whole other failure. It’s stagnation stagnation

Spencer Vann (43:27.751)
Right.

Spencer Vann (43:32.817)
Yeah.

Jess (43:35.591)
corrupts failure, I feel like. Like failure is typically a thing that you have to learn. Like a seed has to fail, like its outer shell has to fail for a tree to grow, kind of thing. it’s it’s about the same dissonance, I feel. ps I d I don’t I I just thought this No, you’re totally fine. That was just my own brain like kickbacking and just going, this is something I I just I like talking about this topic ’cause it just

Spencer Vann (43:37.521)
Mm.

Spencer Vann (43:45.117)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (43:53.244)
And that’s like perspective at the same time. Sorry, I’m so sorry for interrupting you.

Jess (44:05.668)
It’s so vital for people to just take it and move with you instead of fail

Spencer Vann (44:15.58)
Right. Yeah. With the shell of the seed that you just brought up too, it’s like failure is also like a weird like relative perspective. ‘Cause like some could say like the shell has to fail in order for the tree to grow, but it’s like some people could be like, No, that’s the the the sh the shell quote unquote failing, is it succeeding at its job? You know?

Jess (44:35.312)
Yeah. But then at the same time the paradox is its job is to protect what’s inside. So it’s designed to fail at some point. So that the rest of it can do the rest of its job. It’s that whole contin that’s why I feel like stagnation corrupts failure. I think feel like stagnation corrupts a lot of things. and that’s not the same as resting.

Spencer Vann (44:40.657)
Right.

Spencer Vann (44:45.456)
Right. Right.

Jess (44:59.886)
I rest resting is I I saw some social media stuff.

And it was saying, you know, like when did it was on I think Jared Padelecki’s name dropping supernatural all over the place. But it was on Jared Padelecki’s Instagram and it’s hit talking about how rest is mandatory, like it’s a natural phase. Like it’s everything rests, nothing feels bad for resting, except you as a person. And I feel like people for some reason put rest and stagnation together. I did. I’ve I

Spencer Vann (45:14.96)
Mm-hmm.

Spencer Vann (45:30.07)
Hm.

Jess (45:37.495)
Still I maybe it’s because you weren’t moving or what have you, but I’ve learned now that when I hit a restful state, I’m actually able to

prepare like it’s nothing stops. It’s just at rest. It’s not exerting extra energy to go anywhere. It’s sitting and it’s letting everything settle so it can move again. I feel like stagnation at the end of the day is just anchoring down in the one spot regardless of the resource strain, regardless of not being able to produce, regardless of all of these things, and just being like, nah, we’re gonna stay here because it’s comfortable or we’re gonna stay here because it’s what we’re used to.

Spencer Vann (45:56.263)
Right.

Jess (46:13.988)
I feel like that kind of s like, regardless of the signals you’re getting internally, that kind of stagnation is just f fucking poison. Yeah.

Spencer Vann (46:21.849)
Interesting. W like would you mind? Cause like I’m I’m I’m like 90% of the way there. I think this is for me personally, as who I am as an individual, I struggle with separating those two things. Like would you mind saying that again? Like just the difference between stagnation and rest.

Jess (46:37.154)
dear.

I f so stag let me see if I can condense it. Stagnation is more of the this is where I am. Resources have been fine. Everything’s been fine. I’ve we’ve just been here and it’s been fine. So we’re just gonna stay here, regardless of what signal you’re getting to move on.

And then rest is well, we’re out of fuel, we’re out of resource, and we need to settle for a second. Like we have enough resource to settle and pick back up and then go again when we need to, but we need to slow our pace in a direction. So we’re gonna idle here on the surface, but on the inside, everything is moving at a much more natural pace. Like you’re resting. You’re able to find your solace and your equilibrium in rest because it’s not just still and stagnant, it’s moving.

Yeah.

Spencer Vann (47:33.319)
I see. Isn’t it in Campbell’s like hero’s journey when he talks about like telling the story there’s like the hero’s call to action and then there’s like the refusal of the call and like was one of the steps of it and I feel like that’s probably closer to stagnation is like the refusal of the call.

Jess (47:50.546)
Yeah.

The difference between the hero and the civilian is that the civilian can refuse and go back to their life and fate doesn’t give a shit. The hero, on the other hand, has an immutable point in the web. You know, the un that universal web, and it’s like, no, you don’t understand. Unfortunately for you, you are the cog that moves six other cogs. Like, chaos gave you all of the attributes. Sorry.

Spencer Vann (48:07.783)
You are the chosen one.

Spencer Vann (48:17.368)
Yeah. Yeah. This is the hand you were dealt.

Jess (48:20.892)
Yep, it’s just and that’s one of those acceptance things, and it’s just like, but no, what if I fail at that? It’s like, well, you’re immutable, so if you fail, you were supposed to fail, which is unfortunate, but then that doesn’t mean that your life is necessarily over unless we’re going the epic route, then you are gonna die. Yeah

Spencer Vann (48:32.943)
Right.

Spencer Vann (48:38.619)
That doesn’t mean that you’re not the seed shell splitting for the tree to grow.

Jess (48:44.036)
Right, like your design might be to fail so that the next one can go I got that, let’s go do it this way. You know? It’s it’s wild. No, you’re good.

Spencer Vann (48:52.825)
My yeah, sorry. It is. My mom told me this one thing.

when I was like really young, that like always stuck with me. Cause we were talk I was talking to her about like the idea of like finding your own purpose in life. And her whole thing was like you will probably never know what your role and purpose in life was. And she talked to me about the butterfly effect and she’s like I could walk into a place and say something nice to somebody, like a random compliment to a stranger that made them feel good, which then made them go do something, which then

Jess (49:08.272)
Right.

Spencer Vann (49:29.127)
they interacted with another person as a result and then that gave them an idea to do a thing that did the and like walked me through this whole scenario of like and it’s and like there was something that led you to to you know initially compliment or say something nice to that person and she was like but that might be your your role in life and you can look at that in two different ways. You can you can look at that as either what that was it

Or you can look at it and go, Wow, that’s amazing. You know? it’s I just feel like it kinda relates a little bit to what you’re saying, just with the like maybe in at certain points the, you know, immutable role I th or I think, right, is what you were saying, like the of like potentially failing. It might actually be a really important part of your existence.

Jess (49:57.977)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jess (50:15.632)
Yeah, I would dis unfortunately this is you got the mixed bag of tricks, kid. We gotta do it like and I think it’s just gonna drop the trauma nugget in here real quick. I think it’s very similar to trauma. Like d we didn’t like there’s a lot of stuff that has happened to us in the the collective that everybody knows is just. there’s a lot that happened to Yes, exactly.

Spencer Vann (50:21.157)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (50:28.615)
Hmm.

Spencer Vann (50:37.638)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Ross, sorry.

Jess (50:43.612)
I’m gonna have an entire mall, it’s gonna be like Jess R S, Jess and Co., Jess N C. Yeah. It’s gonna be perfect. but yeah, so like that’s the shit that was done.

Spencer Vann (50:47.239)
Ha

Spencer Vann (50:51.847)
That’s funny as fuck.

Jess (50:59.78)
to us that made us the way that we are. And it’s the same for a lot of people with PTSD and a lot of people with trauma and a lot of people you know who’ve gone through the fucking ringer whether they know it or not, things have been done to you. And it’s not this whole like let’s play the blame game here. It’s just we were given this mixed bag of fucked up tricks and here we are now. Unfortunately some didn’t make it but for those of us that did here we are.

Spencer Vann (51:01.073)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (51:28.366)
And now we have to just turn it into something that works. Cause we’re still here.

We went through some shit. We gained some other shit, which is kind of amazing. And now we have to either turn it into a power that we’ve got to continue, or we can sit there and let it destroy us because it’s still a an energy. It still does things to you. So you can either let the trauma keep being trauma or you can let the trauma be a teacher. And I feel like it’s very similar to that whole mixed bag of tricks and mutable

Spencer Vann (51:37.297)
Right.

Jess (52:06.92)
point because I’ve had people tell me that I’ve been an inspiration to them on some of my shittiest fucking days. And it didn’t turn my day around at all. I d Don’t worry, I’m getting to it. But like at in that moment I was still in my shit, like

My trauma was fucking up my day. But one thing that my trauma does allow me to do is to hold on to small morsels of information that typically other people forget. So I hold on to tiny, tiny, tiny details. So if I see a message that’s just like Spence says, Hey man, thanks for that. That was a bill of inspiration. I’m not gonna open it right now because I’m not gonna respond the way I want to. And my day is shit right now, but I know that it’s gonna be there tomorrow. And when I look at it tomorrow, I will have reset something.

Spencer Vann (52:44.965)
Jess (52:52.774)
I know what. But something will reset. And then that will tell the you know what that tells me is just like, yeah, but at some point I was able to repurpose my traumatic energy into something useful enough to help somebody out for the butterfly effect. Like, yeah, I failed that day. I had a shitty fucking day. And maybe that was by design. Maybe I had to fail horribly that day to see that one on a date where I fail, it’s not a bad

day. Like nobody got hurt. You didn’t fuck up any relationships. Like you didn’t fuck yourself up. You just got through it. That’s all you had to do that day. And you still helped somebody up. So yeah. Yeah.

Spencer Vann (53:32.113)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (53:35.887)
Right. That’s fascinating. I think the th it is, it is. And I and you know, I’ve I because it’s an audio only podcast, I raised my hand because when you were mentioning inspi inspiring people, I raised my hand like me. That was me. I’ve done that before. I felt that way. but I was wondering like

Jess (53:39.537)
Yeah.

Jess (53:50.684)
Yeah, I mean

Spencer Vann (53:58.157)
Again, I’m not a huge like superhero comic or or like movie guy. But like the the way that you were describing the the trauma and then, you know, you’re given something else with said trauma. And then it’s up to you to, you know, figure out how to is in in I’m probably boiling it down a little too simply, but like how do you convert that into something like productive? Or how do you pres like how do you convert that into something

hopefully positive. And that made me think a lot about like superheroes who like got their powers like kind of thrust upon them, whether they wanted it or not. And I’m also kind of curious, like, ’cause I know you’re more of a superhero head than I am, are there any superheroes out there who like in their lore, like, they got their powers and instead of immediately just being like, okay, well like I’m gonna go, you know,

Not immediately, but like reach a point where they’re like, I’m gonna go do well. Like did it like really fuck with them and kinda like destroy their psyche kind of?

Jess (54:56.602)
Yes. There are a lot of them. After this, I’m just gonna send you a list of them. So

Spencer Vann (54:59.566)
Okay.

Spencer Vann (55:06.2)
Okay. So so yes, many. It’s it’s kinda it’s like it’s like it’s like walking into a restaurant being like quick question for you, like is there food here? Exactly.

Jess (55:18.202)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, it’s so like a lot of supervillains start out decent and then their brains just just snap and they go completely sil I one of the like the lantern cores from DC go check out the different lan there are more than just like one Green Lantern. There’s like the Green Lantern, there’s the red lantern, there’s yellow lantern, the black lantern, pink lantern like Yes, they’re actually

Spencer Vann (55:26.491)
Got it.

Spencer Vann (55:33.072)
Mm.

Spencer Vann (55:39.139)
Mm. The off white lantern. The the maroon lantern.

Jess (55:45.537)
D yeah, one of those two. The the whole color spectrum, lantern. Rainbow lantern. my god. Mashups are happening from the eighties in my head now and I can’t stop them.

Spencer Vann (55:56.257)
Yeah.

Jess (55:57.873)
But yeah, no, there’s a lot of them that just they fracture or they break or they snap or they go sideways real bad. Even so I I like Moon Knight for obvious, very obvious reasons to people who like comics. for those who don’t, Moon Knight also has DID and is fractured into three different individuals. two of them are incredibly helpful. Mark and Steven. Jake, on the other hand, is a loaded gun.

Spencer Vann (56:03.941)
Hm.

Spencer Vann (56:16.33)
damn.

Spencer Vann (56:20.783)
Uh-huh.

Spencer Vann (56:25.03)
Okay. Okay.

Jess (56:26.128)
Jake took the trauma and chose violence. so there are some like that as well who just decided, nah I’m gonna choose violence. But they’re still considered a hero because they choose violence in a not great way, but you know, it’s acceptable. So yeah, yeah, no, they’re quite they’re quite a few.

Spencer Vann (56:29.232)
Got it.

Spencer Vann (56:36.186)
Hmm.

Spencer Vann (56:39.63)
Right.

Spencer Vann (56:47.234)
Interesting. I w I want to know a story too. And I’m sure again, like, I’m just so unfamiliar with the space. I’m I’m interested in somebody who got superpowers and it was just like, listen man, I just want to work at Jersey Mike’s and go home to my dog. Like I don’t this is not like just does not want to like explore it.

Jess (57:08.91)
So this isn’t like superpowers, but it’s Jesus from Preacher. I don’t know if you have you seen Preacher? You might like that show. It’s clusterfucked up. Like not even jocked up, like fucked up. Like cluster fucked.

Spencer Vann (57:14.838)
okay. No, I haven’t.

Spencer Vann (57:20.836)
Okay.

Yeah. All right.

Jess (57:27.384)
And like Jesus is like, I don’t even wanna do an apocalypse. I just I just wanna live my life and then I’m gonna spoil it a little bit ’cause it’s been out for ever. But at the end he ends up working at like a hardware store. Yeah, well he does s he’s selling paint.

Spencer Vann (57:33.542)
It’s fine.

Spencer Vann (57:39.182)
That’s dope. That’s dope. He’s a carpenter.

Spencer Vann (57:46.264)
Alright. Rock and roll, dude. holy shit.

Jess (57:50.417)
Yeah. But yeah, man, I think some people I don’t and I don’t think that’s a fear of failure either. Those people who just choose the more normal life.

Spencer Vann (58:00.802)
No. I don’t think so either.

Jess (58:03.322)
I think that’s totally fine. And if if you get away with it, I think it was obviously totally fine. Like if fate doesn’t come back and knock on your door again and go, Hey, I want you to do this thing for me. Come do this thing. Like, you know, the Chechens from the drop with Tom Hardy back in twenty thirteen. That’s a good flick. man, you gotta check it out. I will s

Spencer Vann (58:09.442)
Right, right.

Spencer Vann (58:23.27)
I’m not familiar. I’m so unwatched on shit in general. For somebody who loves media and creates things, like other than maybe music, like I really have not seen a lot of like TV and like television, I feel like. Or I’m sorry, TV and movies.

Jess (58:37.338)
I’m gonna ha it’s the same thing these days as whenever TV movies, television, books, podcasts, whatever, it’s the same thing. but nah I gotta send you my like must watch list because it is weird. But I think you’ll you’ll appreciate it. Yeah, no, it’s not like what are normal movies?

Spencer Vann (58:44.422)
God damn.

Spencer Vann (58:53.99)
Hell yeah. I would hope I would hope nothing less.

Spencer Vann (59:02.554)
Big Bang Theory the movie. The Sheldoning. The Baza the Bazinga Ing

Jess (59:04.76)
yeah, it’s not that it’s like no, it’s no. It’s it’s like equilibrium with Christian Bale and Tatiggs way back in the day. I think that what came out two thousand five. A good fucking movie. It’s super dystopian, but it’s a good fucking movie. yeah, obviously the Matrix isn’t there, the first one.

Spencer Vann (59:32.612)
I’ve seen that, yes.

Jess (59:34.897)
Good. Good good good. well what else is in my list right now? I’m gonna s recommend Rear Window, or Re no, Rear It’s a Hitchcock movie. I think it’s re it might be Rear Window. But it’s the g so

Spencer Vann (59:49.424)
Rear window.

Jess (59:53.307)
I’m gonna recommend that because I had to watch it in school and it was it pissed me off. It pissed me off so much because we had a two hour conversation about why he didn’t lock the door and I’m like, Well wheelchairs and stairs don’t go well together, so that might be why he didn’t lock the fucking door. But it’s any of the Hitchcock movies are really good, but that one actually stuck with me because it was just so And then talking about failure,

Spencer Vann (01:00:05.326)
All right. I’m

Jess (01:00:19.844)
Just the resolve that this guy ’cause he’s ki he was one of those that you kinda suspect he didn’t really run into failure much. And he No, the character in the movie s

Spencer Vann (01:00:25.958)
Hm. Do you mean hit I’m sorry, do you Hitchcock?

okay.

Jess (01:00:32.388)
Yeah, so he he runs into like he ends up breaking his legs and he can’t do his job and he’s some famous insert thing from back then here. And he ends up needing a lot of assistance and like witnessing some weird crime, but then it’s like maybe it’s all in my head, but then it ends up being a crib, but then it’s at long of the short of it’s it’s they have to like tie up loose ends and he he ends up being stuck in his own home, unable to escape.

Spencer Vann (01:00:40.422)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (01:01:02.763)
And it’s like a f a flavor of failure he’s never experienced. But the movie w it’s shot very well for the time. It’s like the story is up there. I know I can’t remember any of the characters’ names right now, but it’s been a minute. I might go rewatch it. But like it’s it’s that’s shit. I can’t either have the time, so you’re fine

Spencer Vann (01:01:20.198)
I’m like, that’s fine, I can’t remember yours, so that’s

Jess (01:01:27.214)
So like yeah, it’s it’s one of those that’s really good to like see the people who haven’t experienced a lot of failure, but then to overcome that’s not to say he had he didn’t have a a lot of hard work that he had to do and like put in to be good at his job, but he’s it’s kinda obvious that he’s naturally good at his job. So yeah, no, it’s a good flick. It’s a good flick.

Spencer Vann (01:01:49.06)
That’s crazy. Can I can I be a failure of a podcast guest for a minute? Can I go I’m gonna go pee pee?

Jess (01:01:55.421)
Yeah no, that’s that’s totally fine. We’re just gonna sit here and and wait.

Spencer Vann (01:02:01.029)
My bladder’s full of shit, hold on.

Jess (01:02:04.75)
god, I hope your bladder’s not full of shit. Just so everybody knows, as Spencer shuffles off, your bladder should not ever be full of shit. This this is a legitimate PSA at this point. If your bladder is full of shit, go to the emergency room. Something is leaking. Please. Don’t sit there with a shitty bladder.

Shitty bladders are bad for you. Shitty bladders mean infection. Shitty bladders mean leakage. Shitty bladders mean something on the inside ain’t doing what it’s supposed to do. And well you’re in danger, son. Please. If your bladder is full of shit, do not wait. Go to the hospital. Thank you. That has been your PSA for today.

Spencer Vann (01:03:12.867)
I’ve returned.

Jess (01:03:13.286)
Didn’t hopefully not with a bladder full of shit.

Spencer Vann (01:03:18.221)
Well, I would hope my bladder is not full of shit. That’d be a severe medical issue.

Jess (01:03:20.442)
And we just had that that’s what I was saying to the listeners and folks, don’t if your bladder is full of shit, please go to the emergency room immediately. Like stop listening or take your phone with you and listen in the ambulance. Or, you know, your ride chair, whatever. But yeah, I’m glad you had a good excursion.

Spencer Vann (01:03:35.491)
Yeah. Right share. Whatever you gonna do.

Spencer Vann (01:03:46.487)
Ugh, it was it was great. You know, honestly I feel a lot more dialed in now, which is nice. It’s nice to not have that underlying pressure.

Jess (01:03:55.173)
Yeah. D it’s it’s good. Relieve your bladder when you can, if you can. If not, again, medical issue, please talk to your doctor.

Spencer Vann (01:04:01.429)
Right. Exactly. I I had a quick question too, if you if you were down to s keep talking about this this whole f this whole failure topic.

Jess (01:04:08.256)
Hi man. Today is all you, my dude. It’s you’re the one that’s gonna have to stop me, honestly, so

Spencer Vann (01:04:15.307)
Alright. Rock and roll. I’m I’m here for it. So I’m thinking about like I was thinking about while I was peeing, like about people who because, you know, clearly you and I have a relationship with failure that I’m not gonna say most people don’t have it. I’m s there’s probably a lot of people who have the the same, but I’m saying I know people in my life who have a very negative relationship and a very negative connotation of of failure and what that is. And I and I guess like

I know we probably kind of like touched on this a little bit throughout, but like I sometimes wonder like what is the the cause of that beyond like discomfort. Like I feel like I feel like it really has to be some sort kind of like a very ego driven thing. Or or like a reflection of like how we’re s like told to view it in society.

Jess (01:05:07.344)
Yeah a word could be a very real fear that failure means lack of resource.

Spencer Vann (01:05:14.821)
What do you mean?

Jess (01:05:15.854)
So even people who don’t do something ’cause it so from what I’m understanding it’s like the people who still have that kind of like I don’t wanna do the thing because I’m afraid to fail that fear of failure. not so much from like a fear of success or, you know, like

I don’t want hurt myself or something like that, or like the immediate repercussion, but maybe they’re afraid of the resource the resources they have now that are currently, you know, fueling them, not even just making their lives comfortable, because some of them might be medicinal resources that they need. They’re afraid they won’t have it. Maybe it’s a fear of loss. Maybe maybe they’re conditioning because a lot of people are conditioned to

be afraid of losing their resources and th I mean that’s how people get stuck in jobs, stuck in unhealthy relationships, you know, stuck ts Right. I mean look look around, man. You could probably eat a lot of these things. They’re not polluted yet. You could that’s still a raisin. That that big ass thing over there was a shriveled up grape. Go eat that. You’ll be full for a week. but yeah.

Spencer Vann (01:06:10.499)
Yeah. It’s how caveman starved.

Spencer Vann (01:06:17.945)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (01:06:24.387)
Yeah. Right.

Yeah. That that is that is that’s an interesting perspective on that. I hadn’t really considered that honestly.

Jess (01:06:36.545)
It’s ’cause it’s not a normal way to look at it. ‘Cause we’re

For those of you listening at home, please excuse me, my ear is incredibly itchy. but no, we’re we’re not conditioned to look at things in such a way that breaks pattern. and this isn’t this isn’t a damn the man jump down the throat. It’s just a safety pattern that we’ve learned as humans, so we’re not really conditioned to go against things that are already safe.

Spencer Vann (01:06:45.871)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (01:06:55.685)
Mm.

Spencer Vann (01:07:06.564)
Right.

Jess (01:07:08.322)
And aga that’s why I think a lot of the times why people with, you know, mental health conditions that are open about it get looked at crazy because they’re like, you’re out you’re out of sync with everybody else. You break the pattern, you’re not safe when it’s just like, No, I’m just as safe as you are. but at the same time I know I’m different. And the things that break the patterns, the things that are different, they either have to come in intimidating or they have to come in quiet to be accepted by the rest of the pattern is how it kind of feels at this point.

Spencer Vann (01:07:23.908)
Right.

Jess (01:07:38.206)
And we’re not we’re not taught to look at the thing like that. We’re not taught to separate ourselves from, you know, this is me as a person versus this is me as a person who was taught a thing.

Spencer Vann (01:07:51.238)
Right. Yeah. And like and

gosh, that is that is difficult, isn’t it? ‘Cause it ’cause it’s like I understand the weird inherent instinct of like I need to assimilate for safety reasons, right? Like going like going like back to a kind of like pack mentality. That’s the reason I have really severe s social anxiety. Totally for I mean I’m sure a a million and one different reasons, but one of those reasons is like biologically, you know, you’re you don’t want to be ostracized from a a pack, otherwise you’re gonna be the only one getting eaten by a lion.

Jess (01:08:04.678)
Mm-hmm.

Spencer Vann (01:08:23.939)
Right. Like like it may like ’cause if you’re if there’s nobody in the in the tribe to warn that a lion is coming, then you’re gonna be the one eaten by a lion. Like I I get it. But it’s yeah, it’s so like I understand kind of the the lack of like resources, I guess, maybe is is the is the point I’m trying to draw.

Jess (01:08:24.014)
Yeah. Okay.

Jess (01:08:43.116)
Yeah. It’s and it’s not to say that some of them aren’t egotistical too. Like some people might just be like fuck that I’m not gonna do that ’cause I know I’m not gonna fail, so like why would I tr like well hold on. Like calm down, Ledacey. Like it’s alright.

Spencer Vann (01:08:58.233)
Ha ha ha.

Jess (01:09:01.008)
But s I d I don’t I think that we should probably start look like as a society and and not even start, but I think we should probably cultivate more looking at things from a holistic lens. Like failure’s not a problem. My grandfather used to say this really fucked up phrase of anybody who can’t do teaches and any like I hate that fucking phrase.

Spencer Vann (01:09:21.022)
yeah, I’ve heard that. Yeah.

Jess (01:09:24.136)
because it’s just not fucking true. Some of those teachers were designed to fail so that they could teach because the way they learned it was correct, and they need to give that information to the next generation so they can do whatever it is that they’re gonna do. S some people who are teaching used to do and found stillness in what they did and wanted to perpetuate it, and as respect, this is what they do now. Some people did fail so hard but understand it so well that they can teach.

Spencer Vann (01:09:26.723)
Mm, mm, mm-hmm.

Spencer Vann (01:09:34.669)
Mm.

Spencer Vann (01:09:39.94)
Right.

Jess (01:09:53.903)
Teach it. You know? It’s right. So it’s it’s a shit phrase. It’s a shit phrase. We are taught to do shit things, Spencer. And it it’s dumb.

Spencer Vann (01:09:54.925)
Right. Because they failed.

Spencer Vann (01:10:02.564)
Damn.

Teachers, respect your teachers is what we’re saying here. But it is real.

Jess (01:10:10.714)
Yeah, serious. Don’t push them Yeah, like don’t don’t push your teacher. I don’t care if it’s a classical educator, a friend, lesson in life, like never push your teacher to the brink of stress education.

Not sex education, stress education, stress. Like that’s that’s pretty much when they’re firing on high resolve of either somebody’s not listening or it’s not getting through and this is their purpose, like or they’re have enough of a load and they’re like, I need to get this to you by any means necessary, because that tends to fuck up the flow. Like don’t don’t push the T like don’t push failure to the point where something breaks and it can’t be fixed.

Spencer Vann (01:10:46.563)
Yeah.

Jess (01:10:55.062)
Or it can’t be replaced or it can’t be reutilized. Would you like with failure, that’s another thing where respect comes into play, I think. is just respecting that it is a force of nature and it exists. Like it fucking exists. it’s it’s gotta be there.

Spencer Vann (01:11:03.267)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (01:11:09.528)
Course.

Spencer Vann (01:11:13.782)
It does. It absolutely does.

I’m very hung up in my bra like you might even be able to tell on my face, my brain’s in another place right now, which is like ’cause I and it’s not that I’m not listening to what you’re saying. I’m just like I’m very I’m feeling myself being very caught up. I’m thinking a lot about what you said before about somebody whose ego is like I wouldn’t fail, and they’re like egotistical. I also wonder about people’s like relationship with failure in regards to like preserving their ego, meaning like they

Jess (01:11:20.858)
Ha ha.

Spencer Vann (01:11:45.581)
When you talk ’cause we talked earlier about like self-sabotage, I think. And at least if yeah, at some point. if not be right. And I was thinking about like self sabotaging and like people people

Jess (01:11:48.902)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (01:11:52.572)
Yeah. At least a little bit.

Spencer Vann (01:12:02.492)
self sabotaging because of their fear fear of failure because then when they do succeed that they’re okay with their result. They’re afraid of their own potential, seeing their own f potential at full max. And then they self sabotage and then they go, that was pretty good like considering the circumstances. Do you know what I mean?

Jess (01:12:25.848)
Yeah. Yeah. Like they have to they have to qualify at their

failure almost because they fuck themselves. It’s like they take the wheels off the car and then they’re just like, well considering there are no wheels on the car, I’m surprised I got this far. Like my gu I can’t stop rhyming I must like Dr. Seuss must be coming back or something. I can’t this is insane. but yeah, I think I think it’s it’s one of those like no, but I did it’s it’s almost like that social currency we talked about at one point.

Spencer Vann (01:12:38.723)
Right.

Spencer Vann (01:12:44.236)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (01:12:55.165)
Mm, mm.

Jess (01:12:56.08)
Like well I tried as and I don’t I get anything for that. What are you doing?

Spencer Vann (01:13:04.63)
Right.

To me that screams fear of failure.

Jess (01:13:10.308)
Yeah, or fear of being looked at different. Or d there’s a f I feel like there’s a fear there. Fear of what? I don’t know because I’m not you and I don’t know your journey. But that’s that’s my therapist speak now. It’s when I say I don’t know your journey, it’s pretty much I don’t know your fucking life. and if you don’t tell me what it is, I’m never gonna know it. But also don’t run me down to tell anyways.

Spencer Vann (01:13:14.316)
Mm-hmm.

Spencer Vann (01:13:26.488)
R yeah.

Spencer Vann (01:13:31.925)
Right, right.

Jess (01:13:34.214)
But yeah, no, I I feel like that there is a fear there. Like when people f fail and then they it’s like they take the tools. I I used to do this. I used to take the tools that I had and go, No, I don’t have these anymore. I’m just gonna do it the hard way and it’s like you know you’re gonna kill yourself doing it that way. one way or another. So like how about we be smart about this and use the tools that we have in the twenty first century? We’re it’s not sixteen hundred England.

Spencer Vann (01:13:45.932)
Mm.

Right.

Spencer Vann (01:13:59.397)
Yeah. I I actually resonate with that sentiment really hard because I I don’t know if

I don’t know if it if failure was the fear here. I I’m not exactly certain. But when I first started doing animation, which was like for the many years, was like, that’s what I’m gonna do. That’s what I’m gonna do. Up until I was probably about eighteen or nineteen is when I decided to pivot. But up until then I was drawing cartoons my whole life and I like, That’s what I’m gonna do and I remember my art teacher took me into this little like computer corner in the art room and she was like, I have d there’s this program called Macromedia Flash and and you can do

animation in it and and she was like showing it to me and she was like I have this little thing it’s called a a a wake whack bamboo tablet and you can you know draw or whatever. It was just actually it was probably even before Wackham. I don’t even know. But the it was it was these little pencil drawing tablets and you can draw on the computer and for some reason you know while I did play around with it and have fun, I like told her I like

Jess (01:14:37.414)
Yes.

Spencer Vann (01:15:00.404)
No, I really want to learn it like traditionally. Like I was like, I want a a light box, I want paper, and I want to like really do it the style that I had been seeing traditional animators do it. Now, whenever I tried to start a project, it would never go anywhere because there were hundreds of animators and and inchers and and like it was f you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars into these productions and my stupid brain was just like, I bet I could do that.

Like, you know what I mean? Like on my own. But the there is that weird thing where like for some reason I had this like rejection initially of like almost making it harder for myself. Cause I had something to prove, I guess. I don’t know.

Jess (01:15:41.243)
Yeah. Yeah, and I B I I wonder if it was that fear of success that you were talking about earlier, ’cause for me sometimes I don’t I

catch myself not starting things not from a fear of failure but from resource guarding. Cause I’m like now I have my resources here and I’m not gonna I’m I’m not gonna fuck that up. Why’d I do that? I fuck that up. My resources are great. They’re fantastic. And then it’s like, whoa, hold on a second. Your resources are there for this particular project. If you don’t do project, resource useless. See how that’s not good? Like dropping dropping all the articles and connectors here ’cause I really need those two points to just ramp into each other.

Spencer Vann (01:15:56.483)
Mm.

Spencer Vann (01:16:01.921)
Right. Right.

Spencer Vann (01:16:12.905)
Right. Right. A hundred percent.

Spencer Vann (01:16:21.321)
Right.

Jess (01:16:21.598)
So yeah, no, I think and sometimes I I do make things harder for myself because I’m like, what if I don’t have this thing? So let me do it the hard way because I might not have this thing that I currently have right in front of my face that would make my life easier. How so instead what I’ve started doing is going in and going I’m gonna do it with this thing, and every once in a while I’m gonna break pattern and do it manually so that I remember how to do it, but I’m not gonna punch.

Spencer Vann (01:16:30.981)
Spencer Vann (01:16:37.357)
Right.

Jess (01:16:51.518)
Punish myself, the body, the others, because the you know, if the body’s exhausted, they don’t get to use it. I’m not gonna do that when I have a tool that can make it easier, more efficient, in the same quality right in front of me, where I could produce more of it, versus I want to do it the traditional way. Yeah, I’m not doing it for the ego or anything. I’m doing it because like what if this thing breaks? Well then it fucking breaks and you know how to do it the other way.

Spencer Vann (01:16:57.92)
Right.

Spencer Vann (01:17:06.763)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (01:17:18.563)
Right. And the and the other iteration f of the ego is is then saying like like versus what you’re saying, then it’s going, I’m viewing this technology or this easier means as a crutch.

Jess (01:17:29.859)
Uh-huh.

Spencer Vann (01:17:30.211)
you know, versus going, you know, okay, you know, I like what you’re saying, like kind of like one foot in on like, okay, let me make sure, you know, just in case I didn’t have this, I understand the core principle of this thing, right? And then but then going, but you know what, I do have the tools and resource. This kind of relates a little bit to our AI discussion too, which is kind of interesting. Yeah.

Jess (01:17:41.585)
Right.

Jess (01:17:48.251)
Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. So I think I think it really j and this is something that Ashley asked about in one of a previous episode ’cause we were talking about mastery of self for a split second. And this is one of those mastery of self things. It’s like don’t put your baggage with yourself and hinge it on fear and failure and expect those two things to carry it for you. It’s your job to figure out where your baggage is, where it comes from and how to fold that fucking laundry when you’re done flying around with it.

Spencer Vann (01:18:00.356)
Mm.

Jess (01:18:20.266)
Like be done, but don’t blame failure. Don’t blame fear. Don’t blame these things that you’ve been conditioned to blame. There’s no need. You know There’s there’s no and that’s energy that you could be putting into learning yourself. And once you learn yourself, it’s fucking magical, man. It’s that’s yeah.

Spencer Vann (01:18:20.471)
Yeah.

Spencer Vann (01:18:26.743)
Mm-hmm.

Spencer Vann (01:18:40.875)
Cheat a cheat code. Not cheat code. It’s cause there’s work being put into it. Cheat code implies a to me, I feel like, you know, like it’s just a quick short thing. There’s a lot of work being put into that discovery of self, I bet.

Jess (01:18:51.418)
Back in the day cheat codes, we can say those. Like with the PlayStation when you’re like, okay, hold on, I have to go up, up twice, left, down, down, star R1, R1, R1, R1, R1. fuck, I fucked it up, okay.

Spencer Vann (01:18:54.687)
Ha ha ha.

Spencer Vann (01:19:00.247)
Right.

Spencer Vann (01:19:06.817)
And you’re and you’re not mentioning the step before that, which was going on GameWinners dot com and print and like while your mom is asleep using the HP printer to print off sheets for cheat codes for Tony Hawk Pro Skater four. R Right.

Jess (01:19:13.819)
Yeah.

Jess (01:19:17.468)
Or writing it all down by hand. It’s like shh, it’s two o’clock in the morning. You’re like, I’m not even supposed to be playing video games. Hold on a second. Yeah. I just want an extra life in Crash Bandicoot. That’s I’m just thinking doing this just one extra

Spencer Vann (01:19:22.979)
my god. I really want the big head skater mode.

Yeah.

You go through all that and it doesn’t work and you’re like, Fuck

Jess (01:19:39.164)
But like then you get really good at it ’cause you tried it and then you actually you like you did it and you’re like I figured out how to do it anyway, so it’s fine. I got the big head and the extra life. I guess man. But yeah man, like and I know it this is that freelance life, so I’m getting my little buzzard over here and I don’t wanna hold you up. But did you have any other like questions or points or anything else you wanted to dig into before you

Spencer Vann (01:19:49.0)
my god. That’s so funny.

Spencer Vann (01:20:00.387)
Mm.

Jess (01:20:08.27)
Run off. Throw it at our wellness gurus later.

Spencer Vann (01:20:09.534)
Yeah, right.

I don’t think so. I think if anything, again to anyone listening, I think it is very important, you know, as as we you and I had a podcast together and you talked about this concept of a a respect for fear. I think that a respect for failure is also incredibly important and it’s incredibly important to be mindful. It’s important to not be scared by failure, but rather embrace it.

it and like you were saying earlier, like understand that it is not only inevitable, but that it’s critical to to growth. Exactly. Whoa, whoa.

Jess (01:20:53.006)
Yep. Exactly.

Spencer Vann (01:21:04.737)
Like my my heart’s about to fail with how much that’s that scared me and caught me off guard.

Jess (01:21:13.038)
There we go. Nail on the fucking head.